Can you see through concrete walls? Do you have concrete evidence whether or not I'm at my home or at some library or internet cafe? Didn't think so. The Israelis could see outside, but not inside. The reconnaisance sattelite isn't always overhead. Neither is the UAV. You don't always have eyes on the ground looking at it. You don't know for certain what's behind that building's walls when you drop a bomb fifty yards away from it. And you try dropping a modern-day 250 pound bomb in close proximity to other buildings around the target, see what happens.
Did i say somebody is defending terrorists ? No. Thanks for turning my words around They have no right to defend themselves against the coward terrorists? Who keeps starting? Who kidnapped the soldiers? Who blow themselves up and kill innocent civilians ?
But we must remember, Morv, that it's justified for them to attack first . Oh, forget the whole "let's be civil about it so something other than killings and kidnappings would happen" approach, we can blow up busses full of men, women, and children, many of whom had never even touched a rifle in their lives, much less done anything in anger against a Palestinian.
^^^ Does the extermist actions of some, justify bombing of innocnet people. And dont give me this "they were trying to kill terroirst" cause at the end of the day there is a whole family dead, doesnt matter if they were in a terroirsr neighbor or if they may have supported hamas. They are dead and they never did anything against Israel.
So what is justified? War, especially insurgencies and limited-scale conflicts such as the Israel-Palestine-Hezbollah conflict are never as black-and-white as you like to make them out to be. There isn't always concrete proof that nobody's home, there isn't always concrete proof that it's the right guy, and there isn't always concrete proof that there's a family sitting down to eat twenty-five yards away from a truck with a mounted rocket launcher on it. Sometimes you just don't know. Unless you're right there looking at it, you don't know what's going on, and even then you don't always know. You don't know if your rifle round will travel through your target and hit an innocent bystander. You don't know if your bomb, with whatever effort went into programming it to hit that GPS coordinate, will screw up and nail grandma down the street instead of the guy with an AK in his home and a few pounds of explosives strapped to his chest, about to go meet his God by way of an Israeli bus. You don't know a lot of things in war, so why do you make it out as if the Israelis, especially 18-19 year old kids fresh out of basic training, are omniscient? And the same can be said for a suicide bomber. What about an Israeli civilian riding a bus on his way to work? Does it matter if he supported the IDF's actions? Does it matter if he was a former member of the IDF? Does it matter if there was an off-duty soldier on the bus? Does killing that one soldier in the name of "fighting for their homeland" justify leaving the man from going home to his family, to go to work to get them bread for their table, or out to have a good time? The same questions can be asked of the Palestinians. Do the extremist actions of a few Israeli soldiers justify the killing of innocents with some C-4 and a bunch of nails strapped to your chest?
You keep forgetting the innocent Israelites who died for months because of car bombing and very un-honorable and cowardly attacks by those idiots. If you believe the saying, an eye for an eye, then yes it's justified.
We KEEP forgetting? That's what we've been mentioning across 5 *beep* pages. And btw , when all countries signed not to have any kind of a nuclear weapon , why didin't israel sign, and did you know that there was a time in the war on lebanon when the destroyers or whatever they're supposed to be had their nuclear weapons ready and pointed towards lebanon, who the ---- is israel to declare war on a country over 2 kidnapped soldiers and blow the ---- out of it and ruin its economy. Israel has over 200 nuclear warheads.
If all countries signed, the UK's ---- out of luck, as is France, a few Russian nukes that are left, the Koreans, possibly the Iranians, and the US. Israel knows that if it launches a nuke anywhere within a few hundred miles of its borders, it's dead. Are you forgetting how small that general area is? And those destroyers (ships out on blockade duty around the coast) can't carry nukes, at least the kind that can be shot from the ship. Try again. And it never declared war on the Lebanese. It declared war on the Hezbollah, though it's nothing *new* seeing as they've been at it for years now.
Because I'm in a good mood, I've decided to compile a bit of a photo essay, much like what is shown by Shotokan and Machaivelli as part of their sympathy campaigns. A selection, courtesy of just-released photos from the IDF, follows: A Katyusha launcher, circled in black. The picture was taken by an Israeli unmanned reconnaisance drone. Note the civilian house in the background. The distance scale puts it at approximately twenty-five meters from the launcher. A picture of a weapons storage area, courtesy of an Israeli UAV. The compound was later raided by Israeli forces, and, woe and behold, they found weapons in those rooms circled on the photo. A Lebanese civilian home in the background, less than twenty feet from another launcher. This was taken through a gunsight, just seconds before a bomb was released. A van, carrying a load of five guided anti-tank missiles and their portable launcher, parked next to a mosque. The van was destroyed by Israeli infantry. The brown-tan tubes are packing tubes for the missiles. The soldier in the front is inspecting the captured launcher (large green object, other items in the green canvas bag include the tripod). American-made TOW missiles, still in their containers. These were also captured inside a civilian residence. A bunker inside a civilian home, used by Hezbollah to fire at Israeli troops. A close-up. The chair provides a nice, comfortable firing rest for a would-be sniper. This house was stormed by Israeli infantry while under fire. An Israeli soldier was wounded. A Hezbollah terrorist was killed. An anti-aircraft gun, viewed through a bomb sight. Note the private residences in close vicinity. Another anti-aircraft gun, this time mounted on a truck. The gun is a Russian-made ZSU-23 20mm cannon. Its crew is observed to the back left and around the gun itself. Note the residential area it is driving through. The truck was later destroyed by a bomb. An anti-tank missile launcher, found inside a civilian residence. This particular launcher is found in the courtyard of the residence. A small weapons cache was also found inside. The green, rectangular tubes are the missiles for the above launcher. Note the AK-47 rifles in the background, the three PKM light machine guns in the middle and front, and the two rifles in the middle. This is in the same complex as the launcher above. A suspected Hezbollah weapons cache, less than twenty meters from a mosque (in yellow). This was taken from an Israeli UAV just fifteen minutes before the compound was raided by Israeli special forces. Portable anti-tank missiles found inside a civilian home. Anti-tank missiles found inside a parked civilian car. The car displayed a white flag from its radio antenna, possibly a ruse to transport missiles unseen. A Katyusha rocket barrage is launched from between two civilian high-rise buildings. The launch is on the outskirts of Tyre, Lebanon. The rockets hit a town inside Israel just minutes after this photo was taken, killing one civilian and injuring another. A total of eight rockets were fired, the Katyusha's entire ammunition capacity. No military personnel were hit. No military bases were hit. Only an Israeli town was hit. Ball-bearings found inside a captured Katyusha rocket. Three guesses as to what they're for, and no, the rockets are not designed to carry ball-bearings. A Hezbollah command post. Literally, a command post. Viewed from a UAV, raided by Israeli troops less than an hour later. Marked on the map are what the village contained. High-powered cameras and binoculars found inside a civilian home in the village of Marwahin, Lebanon. Were they for a personal hobby? Let's find out. Radio-scanning devices found inside the same home (the green radio-looking devices at the top). Another frequency scanner. A fact-sheet of Israeli military vehicles, much as would be found in a publication by Jane's. This was also found in the home. Personal hobby? A translated target sheet, stating ranges and azimuths for targeted Israeli towns and cities. Also inside that home. Those are civilian towns and cities, not military bases. If you look closely enough (they're in English now, thanks to Israeli translators), you can see the towns' names and ranges from that position. Personal hobby, the reconnaisance of Israeli vehicles, the scanning of Israeli radio frequencies, and the targeting of Israeli towns and cities? The Israelis may scan Hezbollah frequencies. They also may take photographs, as illustrated above. In fact, those are valid tactics in war. However, they don't do it from civilian homes. Hezbollah does, but this goes unnoticed. Instead, you see pictures like those Shotokan and Machaivelli will post from time to time. Doing so from a civilian residence is also strictly against the Geneva Convention (you know, that document you like to cite the Israelis breaking so much). So is firing weapons from places of worship (Mosques, churches, temples, synagogues etc.). So is storing weapons inside these places. So is placing them at risk by building defensive positions near them (or storing weapons within mere feet, effectively using them as human shields). In fact, that's what many innocent Lebanese were used for in this recent war. Human shields. Literally, human shields. A launcher twenty-five feet from your house puts your house at a huge risk. So does allowing Hezbollah to dig a bunker under your house and put firing ports into its walls. So does allowing Hezbollah to set up a communications center inside your living room. Each of these actions is against the Geneva Convention. It's also very, very dangerous. Shotokan, you DO keep forgetting. Above shows why. All I hear out of you is "THE ISRAELIS ARE BOMBING INNOCENT ARABS AND COMMITTING WAR CRIMES." Guess what, Shotokan? Here's documented proof from a month-long war with Hezbollah of war crimes committed by the Hezbollah. Not images taken from a riot. Not images of wounded civilians and a long paragraph about Israel's supposed indiscriminate targetting of innocent civilians. Documented proof. Each of the places in these photos were either captured by Israeli ground troops or bombed from the air. It cannot be said the same for those Israeli civilians killed by things such as those pictured above. What exactly do you need a list of Israeli towns, their distances, azimuths for rockets, and target numbers next to their names for? Freedom fighting? Attacking Israeli military bases? What's your answer for that?
What we have learnt from this thread from the israel supporters is: When A Israeli is killed by a terrorist its terrible and should not be accepted When a Lebanese person or a palestinian is killed by the IDF , its just collateral damage. Hence we can see that they have no arguement at all and they lose this arguement. Thread over.
Never said that, Lion. However, take a (-)rep for twisting my words around. Shotokan's got one too, just so you don't feel too terribly alone. No, what the above pictures show are: - War crimes (in the form of using places of worship as military fortifications/storage areas, forcing the Israeli troops to either fire on the place of worship, a grey area [can be argued both ways, as the recent Iraq war has shown], or they can continue taking fire, withdrawl, move around it, and above all take casualties) - Use of human shields (literally - they've got a rocket launcher parked twenty feet from a house. It's a win-win situation for Hezbollah; they get their rockets off, civilian casualties happen on both sides, and the Hezbollah get yet another propaganda victory of it all) - Numerous breaches of the Geneva Convention that certain people are so fond of quoting - Use of civilian homes as military posts - Use of civilian homes for reconnaisance/intelligence gathering - Use of an entire town as a Hezbollah command post while civilians still occupied the area (again, human shields) - Use of ambulances, civilian cars with white flags, and non-combatant disguises as modes of transporting weapons/personnel, a war crime. There's even a documented case where an ambulance pulled up during the Second Intifada, when troops were in Gaza, militants got inside, and the ambulance sped away. The Israelis took fire until the ambulance was gone, but did not return fire because it was an ambulance. There is a picture above that illustrates one such case Nope, all the above pictures show are how Hezbollah has used the Lebanese as human shields, committing a few nice war crimes along the way. But again, since I have no argument, I'll just (-)rep you and run away. Wait... that'd be doing what you've just done, sans the rep. No, those on the side of Hezbollah are the ones without a case. They're terrorists, they hide behind civilians, and if the Israelis don't shoot back, more people die. Maybe if the Hezbollah would, oh, I don't know, at least evacuate the people from the areas they're fighting from (seeing as they can bus thousands of people to a city to demonstrate against the government), maybe they'd gain a bit more sympathy. They could also try not dropping a Katyusha filled with ball bearings into an Israeli town full of civilians, because that's actually what seperates them from a valid insurgency. What you and certain others fail to realize is that a bus is NOT a valid military target. A military convoy is a nice, juicy, and above-all LEGAL target, however. So why don't they, oh, I don't know, maybe drop a few Katyushas on some military bases? Here's a proven fact: of the thousands of rockets fired into Israel during the last conflict, only a few dozen even hit within a hundred yards of IDF bases inside Israel. No real damage was reported by any of these military bases, save a few fragments that hit harmlessly. Except for the attacks that kidnapped the two soldiers (though they used rockets against even more towns as a disguise for their assault in addition to mortar barrages on the Israeli posts themselves), the Hezbollah don't even bother attacking the IDF inside Israel, unless of course they're inside the bus that they happen to blow up. That's why (in addition to no form of ID [meaning no legal status other than spies]) they're not a valid resistance movement, insurgency, or militant group. They fight in civilian clothes, shed their fighting equipment at a moment's notice, and blend into the population. They target civilians as a policy but are called freedom fighters, whereas a bomb on a Katyusha firing at Israelis that damages a house is called "terrorism." Again, who has the argument here? You wonder why there were so many civilian casualties in the last war? The pictures above show it. Hezbollah has used the Lebanese as shields. Literally, shields. Even if only one Hezbollah dies in a bombing raid, it's still a victory for them. They've won the propaganda war the minute a civilian is injured. That's why I'm sitting here arguing with someone who thinks bombing a bus is "fighting for their homeland," though a 20-something Arab that hasn't seen anything titled "Palestine" in his lifetime really has nowhere to fight for. Remember, the British Palestine included Jews, Muslims, Christians, and anybody else in the region. Not just an Arab state, which is what the modern-day Palestinians claim their homeland to be. So what have we learned from the Hezbollah supporters? Terror is a-OK, so long as it's "fighting for your homeland." God forbid somebody tries valid insurgency tactics. Hell, look at the European resistance groups in WWII. They partially won the war just by disrupting soldiers. Not civilians. Not hiding behind civilians. They fought with armbands. Some even had cards, similar to dog tags, identifying them as part of their respective groups. Those groups are the perfect example of how Hezbollah/Palestinians should conduct their resistance if they want valid recognition.
