So, I guess your vision of "own" is killing close to 1000 innocent men, women, and children. Destroying thousands of homes of innocent Palestines, and Leabanse. Making southern leabanon almost un-habitable because of the mines and un-exoloded cluster bombs Israel launched.
Thanks for the sources. Those are actually from another forum, and the person did not post those. 2) You skipped the part about the Ottomans bringing over the Arabs as part of the "Arabization." See Wikipedia for a history of this, I'm too lazy to bring it up. 3) Yes, and it's also important to notice the heavy Jewish presence from earlier than that. 5) Yes, they did. However, neither of them governed the territories. Try again. Abdullah was post-Israel's formation actually. His father was one of those who urged the Arabs out of the region, out of the line of fire, promised them the world once they'd won, and had absolutely nothing to show once he and the other four nations got themselves beaten by a nation the size of New Jersey (and this is pre-US military support, mind you. It also went on during an arms embargo to Israel only, not those actually waging that war of aggression.). 7) Wrong again. David made the city a capital for Israel, the nation which his god commanded him to form. So a Cailiph setting foot in a city automatically makes it Muslim? By that logic, John Paul II traveling around the world should've made the entire world Catholic. 8) Where did I say that it had no religious significance. It contains a Mosque held sacred to Muslims. However, that was built during the Arab occupation of the region (7th century - the Jewish sites pre-dated it by thousands of years). By the way, the 8) that I posted refers to the Muslim leaders promising the Arabs the land once they'd won against the Israelis. That never happened and you now have 650,000 displaced as a direct result of the Arabs' war of aggression. Where did they gain the right to complain through losing a war that they started? 9) Who now? I'm sorry, I was reading about the Jewish populations being forced from the Arab nations. My mistake. And "forced" does not mean "get out of the line of fire so we can kill off the Israelis and cleanse the land of the Jews." 10) Second-class citizens. Isn't that now what you claim Arabs in Israel are treated as? Seems you have no room to complain. There is no Kurdistan. That is a fact. The Kurds are also an ethnicity native to the region. Arabs brought from another area to "Arabize" the region are not. The British recognized Palestine, that is true. However, they recognized the then-Palestinians as Jews, Christians, Muslims, and anybody else in the region. Not just Muslims/Arabs, which is what the Palestinians are claiming the area to be (Stop the unjust occupation of Arab land and all that). 12) It should make me sensitive that the Palestinians want the one Jewish nation in the world as opposed to the 22 Muslim nations and other Arab nations scattered throughout? No, that shows that there's a huge imbalance of Jewish vs. Muslim/Arab nations and, if the Palestinians want to claim what they claim, makes me more sympathetic to the Israeli cause. 14) Copied and pasted the list. Either way, they're political nothings. The Palestinians don't like them because they propose peace. The Israelis don't like them because they're incompetent and can't keep control as a government should. 1956, start thinking about blaming the UK and French. They went in as a coallition. It was a response to the Egyptians nationalizing the Suez canal, something that was built and controlled by the British at the time. Look into some history textbooks. The Israelis also attacked pre-emptively because of a large massing of Egyptian troops and intelligence that an attack was imminent. That same excuse was used by the Arabs in 1948, 1967, 1973, and 1982. That was the only Israeli initated war out of the five. The others were invasions. This was in response to an imminent threat. Long story short: the Egyptians should've thought twice before provoking the Israelis, and it is argued that the Egyptians caused the war because of this. Between that, attacks and cross-border raids were launched from the Egyptian border and the Golan Heights. It can also be argued that the Egyptians shot first. Same situation in 1982, except the Arab-backed Hezbollah was the one playing games. That resulted in a long occupation of Lebanon. Terrible consequences for some fanatic's idealology. 1973: The Egyptians and Syrians attacked first. The Israelis wouldn't mobilize because of Yom Kippur, giving the Egyptians and Syrians time to advance and ready their troops. From that, they recieved a total of around 20,000 dead, five for every Israeli dead. Try again.
wow very deep arguments have to agree with ferret mostly on this thougth i sumtimes see watcha mean machi
I must ask you: what is your view on Israeli citizens? Do they deserve to die by some guy blowing himself on a bus or a cluster muniton falling from a rocket sent by someone who hates him because he's Jewish/lives in Israel? Or are their deaths just as deplorable as those you mention. It's tragic for any civilian loss of life to occur. Having said that, you seem to focus on Arab/Muslim casualties while leaving out Israeli deaths or dismissing them completely. Is it that their deaths are bad, but thousands of Arab deaths are worse? Or do they deserve to die, as they're "scummy Jews" (quoting one of your positive reps)? Just curious.
why does it seem every arguement in this forum always ends up between me and ferret. Are we that much of opposites? Merged Post: I moron at every innocent civilan death no matter what nation. But you must look at the numbers. Close to 1000 dead innocent civilans by Israel very few Hizbullah fighters. Hizbuallah killed close to 120 soliders and only around 30 innocent Israeli civilans dead in the conflict. Even before that, civilan deaths on bus and such does not even come close to the number of Plaestines and Leabanse civilans massacred and killed in there homes. Or to the homes destroyed by Israel. Or the pain the Palestines must go through every day because of the over 300 check-points marking there homes.
Congratulations! You have just shown that you: A) Quantify human life (meaning more deaths is worse) B) Are biased beyond all belief C) Really don't care about anything that doesn't support your cause Really, congratulations. It's a wonderful thing to show us that. You shouldn't have troubled yourself with saying that - I already knew it from your posts. Is not a person who kills another on par with a person who kills many more? Some numbers on the Lebanon conflict: - 300,000 Israelis and 900,000 Lebanese displaced - 1,500 killed (both sides) - 44 Israeli civilians killed by rockets/mortars - 1,056 Lebanese civilians killed by bombs - Hundreds of rockets per day fired into Israel by Hezbollah - Use of guided weapons by Israelis in support of Israeli troops and strikes on Hezbollah leadership Beruit International Airport was bombed to keep the two abducted soldiers inside the country. So were the roads and bridges leading out of the country. The Israelis subscribe to the leave-no-man-behind policy and knew full well that if the soldiers were allowed out of Lebanon to Syria/Iran, they'd be tortured, imprisoned, and probably executed on video. Israeli rockets and artillery killed four UNFIL observers in addition to some twelve Hezbollah camped around the position. The Hezbollah had dug their position within line of sight of the UNFIL position and "danger close," meaning any bombs dropped risked the danger of killing the UNFIL troops. The Hezbollah were firing on Israeli troops, and the Israelis were forced to respond. The Israelis attacked apartment complexes housing Hezbollah leadership, who unfortunately sat in the same building as civilians. It is common sense that, after the first bombs fall near Hezbollah, it's a safe bet that you may be bombed if you're near them. The civilians didn't get the message, even after numerous warnings. They didn't leave and got bombed. Not only that, they weren't always "innocent" either. Just because they don't have a weapon doesn't mean that they're not aiding the terrorists, something that's against international law, a fact widely ignored in your posts. The widely condemned Qana bombing took out a Katushya launcher situated on top of the building, a fact which was widely ignored until well after the bombing. The Israelis even released UAV coverage of the launcher firing rockets into Israel just thirty minutes before the bombing. Hezbollah, however, attacked purely civilian targets with their rockets and as such have no room to talk. --- It's a terrible thing to have to put a wall and checkpoints up because those wanting through the barriers have come across with bombs strapped to their chests. The Palestinians should think about that if they don't want the barrier. And that is something you can't deny. They have used Gaza and the West Bank as staging points for attacks, as well as the Golan Heights. Please. Massacred? You make it sound as if the Israelis are lining them up and machinegunning them. Really, all I hear out of you is "massacre, massacre, massacre" and "the Israelis did this and the Israelis did that." Unfortunately, seperate UN probes into it have come up with nothing to support your claims. Independant probes have come up with nothing to support your claims. Israeli probes into their own military have come up with nothing to support your claims. Give it a rest; there have been dozens of probes into it, and the most they can get is the use of cluster bombs (something that the Israelis aren't restricted to using - they didn't sign that particular treaty) and white phosperous (something they aren't restricted to using either). And by the way, white phosperous is used for marking positions and creating smoke screens. Besides, we all know that allowing Hezbollah to see Israeli troops is a crime, right?
Your facts are litered with biased. "- Use of guided weapons by Israelis in support of Israeli troops and strikes on Hezbollah leadership" Most of these weapons did not strike Hizbullah leadership targets but rather the homes of innocent people. And please dont tell me that they lived near the leadership place so they were allowed to attacked. Most of there civilans are too poor to get out. And look at the point, hundreds of innocent civilans died. White phosprous is used to create a smoke screen. You wanna know what phorpus does well here is a pic srael bomb targets (for self defence) 15000 apartments in Beirut Food factories Industrial factories TV stations Power stations Radios stations Mobile phone towers Churches Mosques Fuel depots Emergency Service Centres Warehouses UN Station Hospitals Infrastructure Dams Schools Palestinian refugee camps All 3 airports All 4 major sea ports Fleeing civilians 16 Juy 2006 "The Israelis attacked apartment complexes housing Hezbollah leadership, who unfortunately sat in the same building as civilians. It is common sense that, after the first bombs fall near Hezbollah, it's a safe bet that you may be bombed if you're near them. The civilians didn't get the message, even after numerous warnings. They didn't leave and got bombed. Not only that, they weren't always "innocent" either. Just because they don't have a weapon doesn't mean that they're not aiding the terrorists, something that's against international law, a fact widely ignored in your posts." International Law regarding self defense places certain limitations on the right of self-defense after an attack. 1. The right of self-defense is meant to give nations the right to take measures to repel an armed attack until the UN Security Council can act to stop the aggression. Once the immediate danger is over, international law requires that victims of aggression bring their cases to the Security Council for action. The Security Council is not always able to act, but this generally has been due to the veto wielded by Washington on behalf of Israel. In the case of the Hezbollah raid, the attack occurred and then ended. Israel was not under an on-going attack. The veto wielded by the US has been used to facilitate the Israeli aggression, rather than protect the innocent. 2. Acts taken in self-defense must be proportionate to the offense. Imagine the disgust if an entire suburb was destroyed by police raids because they knew a murderer lived in that suburb. Or imagine if a shop owner murdered a thief he'd caught stealing his goods, and then went after the thief’s family, murdered them and burnt down his and his neighbor’s homes, just for good measure. Would you accept that as 'self-defense'? Israeli combat norms require the employment of massive destructive force to revenge and regain deterrence. This practice has repeatedly been carried out in West Bank and Gaza. Such employment of massive destructive war, targeting civilians and infrastructure is contradictory to international law and the 4th Geneva Convention. Innocent civilians are being collectively punished in Lebanon by the state of Israel in deliberate acts of terrorism as described in Article 33 of the 1949 Geneva Convention. “Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited. Pillage is prohibited. Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.” "The widely condemned Qana bombing took out a Katushya launcher situated on top of the building, a fact which was widely ignored until well after the bombing. The Israelis even released UAV coverage of the launcher firing rockets into Israel just thirty minutes before the bombing." So a Kayushya rocket justifys the death of over 40 innocent civilans many of them children
What about the Israelites that have been killed for months because of the suicide bombings? Oh, I'm sorry they don't matter to you, because they aren't Muslim. Sorry, my mistake. *mumbles*Biased little.......
Everything Machiavelli X said so far makes sense more or less. Innocent civilians don't deserve to die no matter what. Its a pity that there are groups like Hezbollah around who think that firing some rockets into Isreal and Kidnapping people will acheive anything. However, you can't bomb a city and destroy bridges , apartment buildings and kill hundreds of civilian lives and then say " well they are hiding amongst civilians" In this day and age how can a army of a country do something like this. The civilians lives are a priority. So what?...You drop some leaflets telling them to leave their houses?........wait how can they do that if you've destroyed the transport network. Israel needs to get its act together or they'll just be hated more and more in the middle east. Just Give the people back their Lands . Don't violate UN Resolutions and then make a big deal how Hezbollah didn't obey them either.
The not-so-widely know fact is that the Israelis don't have to follow General Assembly resolutions. Neither does anybody else; they're just a reflection of opinion on a matter. The Israelis didn't bomb the bridges and roads to piss off the Lebanese. They did it to keep the two Israeli soldiers inside the country, part of the reason why they attacked Lebanon in the first place. And I've already gone into "their lands," see above for that. Machaivelli, I said what I did because you say Arab deaths are worse because there are more of them, which means you're putting a value on human life. Merged Post: Oh I'm biased? That's a laugh. Unfortunately, there's a difference between a Katyushya and a guided bomb in that a Katyusha is an indiscriminate weapon fired to terrorize. Guess what? Bombs explode, Machaivelli, and unfortunately for those who live nearby, they can get hit. Hezbollah's leader said they were "ready for total war" and effectively told Israel to "come and get it." Why are you complaining? That's what happened. Total war is on everything, not just the military. An apartment complex housing Hezbollah will also have others in it. The guy was killed, but those inside were too stupid to, say... use their legs? You don't need money to walk out of that danger area. You say that your terrorist attacks are justified, but the Israeli attacks on Hezbollah aren't? Don't forget, Hezbollah attacked first. Lebanon was used as a support base and staging area. That area was taken down. That's it. Don't want to be bombed, get on out of there. Maybe walk around waving white flags for insurance. RebelYell hit it right on the head about you: it doesn't matter about the Israelis because they aren't Muslim. Don't pretend you mourn, you don't. You just use it to fuel your bias and justify terrorist attacks. And if that boy were hit by phosperous, he'd be dead, not alive. Phosperous burns while in contact with oxygen. He looks to have recieved flash burns, much like those recieved in an explosion. Once in contact with the flesh, a dime-sized particle could burn a hole through his body. That's through his body, not just the burns he's recieved. Want to know another fact? I've seen that video, and it's one of the most biased, anti-Israel ones out there. However: That bus was torn apart by ten kilograms of explosives, loaded with nails and ball bearings for fragmentation effect. Hamas claimed credit for it, and then complained when Israeli army helicoptors struck Gaza in the next few days. Don't complain about anything the Israelis do if you support what is pictured above - you're no different than what you make them out to be.
